“YOU’RE NOT TALKING TO NO FOOL NOW, YOU KNOW – I
WASN’T BORN YESTERDAY”
When I found out that Napoleon Murphy Brock had gotten
back into music and had been playing with the 10-piece
IB: How did you first get into music?
NMB: I’ve been into music all of my life. I started when I was about five –
gospel, in church. My grandparents, who I lived with, were very religious – the
Baptist church. Everyone in the family sang – that’s what we did, they started
us off very young. And for some reason they thought I should be singing in all
the choirs. And that was basically how I got started. I got to Junior high school
and it was the same – you know, the choirs. Then in high school, it went full
blown; I started playing the clarinet when I was a sophomore. Then I got into
tenor saxophone. I was in the concert band, I sang in the jazz band, I was in a
marching band, in the orchestra, and I sang in all the choirs. I’ve been doing
it since then.
IB: I understand you were playing sax in a bar in
NMB: Well, actually, I was in a six-piece band – we did our own little tours
in different cities in the
IB: What sort of music were you playing?
NMB: We were playing cover music – you know, top 40, whatever was popular at
the time. And then we mixed some jazz in with it if it was suitable for the
venue we were playing. Dance music mostly, because people liked to dance and we
liked to see them have a good time.
IB: So how did the meeting with Frank come about?
NMB: As I understand it, he had just finished touring
IB: What was the name of your band?
NMB: Gregarious Movement…’happy people who like happy people who like happy
people’ something like that to define the word gregarious. We wanted to start a
movement here. We were picking up happy people along the way and making other
people who were sad happy. But mostly the music that we were playing was happy
music. Anyway, he came into the club and saw us playing – didn’t recognise us,
because no one knew about us except the club owners that hired us and the
people who came to see us. He ran back to the hotel, woke Frank up and said,
“Hey, get your clothes on: I just found your new lead vocalist.” Because Frank
had just fired Sal Marquez – they’d had some sort of squabble in
IB: So you were playing the hits before they were hits?
NMB: You got it. We were playing Santana’s ‘Evil Ways’ before it got over
there. As a matter of fact, we were playing it before Santana put it out
because I had heard this other guy named…what was this drummer’s name? Willie Bobo. Willie Bobo put it out on
one of his albums and I heard it and said “Wow! This is a very good song” and
so I had the band learn it and we started playing it. We were playing it for
something like 5 months, and all of a sudden it came out on the radio and
everyone says, “Hey, we heard your hit on the radio – although it’s by Santana.
Who’s he?”! We would do that, we would learn all these hit songs because after
doing it for a while I was able to tell which ones were going to make it and
move right up the charts. So we would learn the top 15 or 20 songs and we would
go to Hawaii and, after we’d been there a couple of months, they’d start
playing them on the radio. And all these people would come running in saying,
“We hear your music on the radio!” It was just really funny. But anyway, during
one of the intermissions, Marty Perellis walked up to
me and said, “Someone wants to meet you.” And I said, “Well, I’ve only got 15
minutes. Is it important? What’s it about – you want to hear songs? Tell me
which song you wanna hear and I’ll play it for you.”
And he said, “No, he actually wants to meet you.” And I said, “Who is it? I
only have 15 minutes.” He said “It’s Frank Zappa.” And I said “Okay, who’s
Frank Zappa?” And he said, “You don’t know who Frank Zappa is?” and I went “
Well, no. Is he a musician?” “Yes.” “Well, what does he play?” “He plays
guitar” “ Does he record? I’ve never heard of him. He doesn’t play jazz because
I would have heard of him. And he doesn’t play top 40 because I’m knowledgeable
about who plays top 40. So what kind of music does he play? Where is he?” And
he pointed to him; he was in the back there. And my vision was much better
then, and I said, “He looks like a guy I saw on a poster – a music store in Haight Ashbury – sitting on a
toilet flipping the bird. Is that him?” He says, “Well, yeah.” I said, “Well
what does he want with me?” “Well, he wants to talk to you.” And I thought
‘Okay, but that’s not a very good endorsement – some weird guy sitting on the
toilet – wonder what he wants with me?’
IB: That was going to be my next question – you obviously weren’t familiar
with his music at all.
NMB: I wasn’t familiar with his work; I’d never even heard his name before.
I was just a top 40 musician. So I went back and was introduced to him. He
said, “I like the way you play. I like the way you sing.”
IB: “I like the way you dance”?
NMB: He didn’t bring that up then, you know (laughs). At the time I
was playing organ, playing bongos with mallets, saxophone, flute, and singing
and dancing. That was what I did; a little bit of whatever had to be done to
get the song out. And he said, “I like the way you sing, and I like the way you
play. I’d like you to come to Europe with me next week and do a European tour.”
I said, “I’ve got to be honest with you; as I told your road manager, I’m not
familiar with your music.” He said, “Well, that doesn’t matter – I’ll come over
and teach you everything you need to know on Monday.” “Well…err. Okay, who’s in your band?” And he
said “George Duke, Jean Luc Ponty…” I said “Stop
right there…”
IB: You’d heard of those guys, obviously – from the jazz world?
NMB: “…I have all of George Duke’s stuff – with Cannonball Adderley. I have a couple of Jean Luc Ponty
albums. There’s nothing you can teach me in one day that’s going to prepare me
to play a tour or concert or engagement with George Duke and Jean Luc Ponty; it’s not possible. And there’s no way in the world
that I would accept such an offer knowing the calibre of musician that they
are. But if they play with you, you must be good. Because they’re really good.”
And he says “Don’t worry, we can do it.” And I said, “It’s not possible. Number
one, I have a contract: I’m booked to be here for three months and we’ve only
been here six weeks; we have another 6 weeks to play.” “Well, I’ll buy the
contract.” “That’s not the point – you can’t buy this contract because it’s not
a written contract: it’s a verbal one between two gentleman, the club owner and
myself. He owns a couple of clubs and I go and play them all.” The club was
owned by a guy called Claude Hall – he was the first Marlborough man. And Dickie Smothers – one of the Smothers Brothers – they owned
a couple of clubs and we played their clubs. And they paid us quite well. They
paid for our transportation – whether by plane or by land. And they paid our
hotel bills. Because we were quite good – we bought them a lot of revenue.
Every time we came to their clubs, they said, “When you’re here, this is what
we make. When you’re not here, this I what we make.” So I said “You can’t buy
the contract, because we have a gentleman’s agreement.” He says, “I wish you’d
reconsider.” “Well, I can’t because I promised these guys. And this is
paradise; why would I want to leave here to go and embarrass myself in front of
two of my idols? That wouldn’t be very smart. No, I’m sorry – I’m going to have
to decline your offer. I appreciate it and, because of the personnel in your
band, I feel quite honoured for you to even suggest such a thing. But this is
my number, and I’m not doing anything after October.”
IB: This must’ve been in 1972?
NMB: It has to be 71 or 72 – the late part of the year, because I started
touring with him in late 72.
IB: He had the accident at the end of 71, when he was pushed off the stage.
NMB: Yeah, 72. When I saw him, his leg was healed. He was walking okay. Next
thing I know, in October, I get a phone call. He says, “Hi, this is Frank
Zappa.” I said “Oh, hi. How’re you doing? I remember you.” He says, “Well, I’m
at the airport.” And I said, “I don’t really know what that means.” He said “
Well, I just got back from Europe. I just got off the plane. I’m at the
airport. You told me to call you, and I’m calling you.” And I said, “Well,
yeah. But I didn’t mean for you to call me at the airport – you could have
waited until you got home.” He said, “No, it’s important. I want you to come
down as soon as you can. Can you come down and make a rehearsal next week?” I
said, “Sure, I’m not busy right now – I have no more engagements” So I went
down to the audition. He introduced me to everyone: Ruth, Tom Fowler and Bruce
Fowler, Jean Luc, George and Ralph Humphrey. He says, “Well, sit down and take
a listen.” And they played about ten songs without stopping. Seven or ten – I
forget how many because I couldn’t separate them. I didn’t know where one
stopped and the next one started because of all the diverse time signatures that
he uses in his music. But I knew there were at least seven different songs. The
next thing I knew, they’d finished and he came down and says, “What do you
think?” And I’m like “Whoa! How did you do that?” It’s quite interesting, you
know. Well, he asked me “Do you think you can do it?” I said, “Sure.” Because
to me it was the same as a rock opera – it had all the characteristics of a
Broadway musical, except it was a little weird. A lot of different time
signatures and everything. That was the jazz element – you know, with all the
jazz musicians, I could understand that. And I understood that all of the
musicians were from the music conservatory, so that made sense too. And I
figured I could do this. I said, “This is a real good opportunity for me.” And
he says “Sure, let’s do it.” Next thing I know, “Here…” I get a big stack of
charts “…this is what you’ll be singing”!
IB: Presumably he also wanted you as a sax player?
NMB: Sax, flute and lead vocalist…as it turned out, more a lead vocalist and
front man. I could see when they played these songs they badly needed a front
man – someone to explain some of this stuff. Or to at least kind of physically
describe what it felt like.
IB: You sounded like you had a ball during you first stint with Frank – with
Ruth Underwood, Jeff Simmons and George Duke. What are your fondest memories of
those times? It was such a great band.
NMB: Jeff came along after the Roxy – that’s when
I met Jeff Simmons. Before that it was one of the most difficult learning
sessions I’ve ever been involved in in my life.
Because here I am learning this music, memorising this music, reading these
charts – because he didn’t allow music on stage. Didn’t even allow lyric sheets
on stage. They had to be memorised. It was a very difficult time for me
because…it would have been a lot easier if I had heard his music before, but it
was very foreign to me. It was so completely different from any other music I
had heard in my life and so I had to empty my memory banks of everything else
that I had learned in my life to make room for this collage of really strange
bizarre music. I was raised up with a 1-3-5 chord structure, and he was doing
1-2-4. I felt that was kind of strange, and I said, “Aren’t you making it kinda difficult on yourself? Why are you doing it like
this?” I learned later that’s his signature – this was basically one of the
ways you were able to tell the difference between his music and others. You try
to play the chords, you figure ‘this isn’t it’, and then you start to move a couple
of notes and it’s ‘Oh, that’s what he’s playing. But why?!’. What sticks in my
mind most was learning his music. I had to spend a lot of time before the tour,
during the tour, in hotel rooms just day and night. And Chester Thompson came
in the next day, so him and I were basically on the same page as far as playing
Frank’s music. He had never played it before either. He would play with people
like Webster Lewis, who were just basically jazz. But he had also graduated
from the Berklee School of Music, so he was quite a
good drummer. But him and I, we were just being introduced to the band at that
time so we were collaborating, and we were going “Shit! Did you listen to that?
Did you look at those charts? This is ridiculous!” That was the hardest part. And
the most memorable, because when we started the tour, all of the members of the
band would request that I be put in a room at the end of the hall – as far away
from them as possible.
IB: Why was that?
NMB: Because I’m up all night practising! He wouldn’t let me play my
saxophone and flute on stage until I memorised the parts. I said, “Well, why
even bring them?” He says, “No, no, no, no, no. You need to learn it. And as
you learn them, then you can play them.” So I had my saxophone and flute on
stage for the first couple of concerts that I didn’t even play at all. I just
set them up. Frank said, “Set ‘em up so that people
get used to seeing them.”
IB: You talk about learning the music. What about the vocals? There was a
lot of improvisation there – songs like ‘Dummy Up’ and ‘Room Service’.
NMB: That came along later. First of all you’ve got to realise that he was a
strong disciplinarian: every note had to be as written and as charted. The
intonation had to be absolutely perfect. Fortunately for me, I’d had a lot of
experience with light opera. I did light opera for about four or five years –
you had to articulate there, you had to be absolutely perfect. I mean with
Rodgers and Hammerstein, you couldn’t sing whatever notes you wanted. Oklahoma
had a specific melody line – all those plays, Oklahoma, Carousel,
Guys & Dolls, Damn Yankees – all of those had very acute
melody lines that had to be adhered to. So I had the discipline already –
except I didn’t know the level of the disciplinarian that I was getting
involved with. Some of his melodies were very beautiful – for example, ‘The
Idiot Bastard Son’. But I thought it was kind of strange that he would put
those words to such a beautiful melody. Then he would tell me the stories about
how he created the songs – that they were real-life experiences. I was not
getting discouraged, but a little bit frightened about spending my spare time
with this guy - I didn’t want to be one of these experiences that he wrote a song
about!
IB: You mentioned Marty Perellis – of course he
was the subject of quite a few of the improvisations.
NMB: Marty was quite a character. He was a very good road manager, but he was
quite a character too. And he would have to be quite a character and very
charismatic to deal with all the personalities that he had to deal with. So,
many times he became the brunt of the joke of the day – simply because of some
of the things that he would do. You’ve seen the video, Dub Room Special?
IB: Yeah.
NMB: You saw the gorilla that came up behind Chester?
IB: Oh, from the TV show – A Token Of His Extreme?
NMB: Yeah. When Chester was playing, you saw the gorilla that came up with
the clock and a comb? Well that was Marty Perellis in
the gorilla outfit. And no one knew – even Frank – that he was gonna do that. He would do that impromptu to blow our
minds. And as you saw, Chester was quite surprised – and the rest of us were
too...I looked back, “A gorilla?”…but I got to the point were I was learning to
expect just about anything from this organisation. And the whole thing about
the ‘Room Service’ routine, that was all ad-lib – we ad-libbed that every day.
There was a basic format: “You call me up and tell me what you want”; and we
would bounce off of each other. By the time we did that, we had a camaraderie
where we would challenge each other without saying “I’m gonna
challenge you.” We would just challenge each other. Because he would challenge
me to see if I was gonna fuck up. And I would
challenge him to say “Okay. Not only am I not gonna
fuck up, but I’m gonna throw something different at
you every day. Let’s see if you can deal with it.” We would kind of look at
each other out of the corner of our eyes – because we were basically
challenging each other. At that point I was like “Okay, I’ve learned your music
to the point where you’re allowing me to ad-lib now. And so I’m gonna show you that you made the right decision when you
chose me. Because, yes, I do have these qualities and abilities that you
recognise that you have yourself. I’m not you, and you’re not me, but I can do
this and let’s go. Here’s another night, this is another show – let’s see where
we can go.” And so it wasn’t so much a challenging thing as a game that we
started to play to see if we could incorporate into the dialogue many of the
events that took place the night before. And so the whole idea about me
bringing up the dogs…I said “What about the dogs?” He started to crack up, and
said; “I didn’t tell you about the dogs!” I said, “You didn’t have to tell me –
I saw them when you registered.” All of that was completely ad-libbed, but it
was just the truth. It was what happened. “I saw you when you registered. I
know those dogs were with someone.” “Well, hell - they weren’t with! They were
with the guy with the gorilla outfit!” And so he made that quite clear right on
tape. And I thought that was quite neat. But we did that a lot. And if you
listen to different tapes of that performance, you’ll see that it was different
every time. It was a basic format, but anything that happened to the band the
night before that was significant – we would try and throw it into the show
someplace. Like George on the Helsinki tape was saying something about Ruth
having a party in her room with someone. And I would say, “Well, George made a
tape of it.” So Frank would say “Okay, we’ll listen to it later!”
IB: Would it be right to say that any songs were written with you in mind?
He used to tailor songs to the abilities of the musicians, so would you say
that your flute was an inspiration for ‘Dupree’s Paradise’?
NMB: I don’t know if it was or not. I didn’t hear it until I came along –
that was the first I’d heard of the song. I was just trying to hold up my end.
Here comes another song, “Oh, great!” But the whole Evil Prince thing we
developed together. We did that before he did Thing-Fish, because he
hadn’t even met Ike Willis yet. It wasn’t even conceivable that here was a
character that we could incorporate into an idea that he had that talked like
Kingfish from the Amos & Andy Show. That was one of Ike’s things, he
had this deep voice and he used to mimic Kingfish. And Frank, anytime he saw
something like that, he’d go “I can use this over here,” and would structure
something and utilise it to suit the new band’s style. The whole idea of the
Evil Prince came just by chance. We were doing a tour with Terry Bozzio, Roy Estrada and Andre Lewis. And one of the new
songs we started doing was ‘The Torture Never Stops’, about this little cave
where this mad scientist was doing all these nasty things. Now by this time, it
was easy for me to elaborate on a concept. I would look at the lyrics and I’d
know what he was trying to say. And I was spending a lot of time at second-hand
clothing stores. So for each song I would get some clothes and develop a
character. I would wear these white gymnastic pants with American flag
suspenders. With these pants I could put on a jacket and a hat and I’d be a new
character. Every jacket was a different colour. So while he was singing, “Flies
all green and buzzin’, in his dungeon of despair…” I
would turn into this person who was a mad scientist that I found out later was
called the Evil Prince. That’s what I was doing on stage; he would have a song
and I would develop a character to go with the song. He allowed me to do that
because he trusted my ability to ad-lib his creations at that time. If you
listen to any of the bootleg stuff – either from when George and Ruth were in
the band, or the other band with Terry and Roy Estrada – you heard a lot of
ad-lib stuff. He started allowing me to do that after I’d learnt all of the
music, and I didn’t have to read the charts any more and I could play my parts
on every song. Sax. Flute. Whatever. I knew the music and he was comfortable
with it and then he allowed me to ad-lib. Because that was one of the qualities
that he really hired me for. I did a lot of that when he first saw me. When I
put together songs for the bands I was working with, I would extend them
because they would be too short for the people who wanted to dance. They were
usually only a couple of minutes long. So what I would do was say, “Okay,
here’s a song by Sly & The Family Stone. But this is what they should have
done. They should’ve just continued on and taken it over here. Because this is
what the song really suggests.” So the rest of this would be all ad-lib, but it
was connected to the original creation. So I guess he must have heard that when
he first saw me. And he was probably familiar with the material himself because
I found out later that he loved rhythm and blues; he was really enthused by
Afro-American music. But anyway, he started allowing me to ad-lib and he would
give me sections of a song and he’d just let me go on. But I would taper it
because I didn’t want him to stop. I didn’t overdo it, and I kept it within the
context of his original – but at the same time, I extended it: ‘This is fine
right here. But if you’re gonna have this space here
where you’re playing this funk vamp, this is what goes here.’ And I used it,
because I had to have something to do while I was dancing around all over the
place.
IB: So that’s how things like ‘Ruthie Ruthie’ came about.
NMB: Yeah, all that…the ‘Velvet Sunrise’…
IB: That was on the Beefheart tour. What are your
memories of the Bongo Fury tour?
NMB: Van Vliet – whew! Deep. Quite a funny guy.
Within his own right, a genius for what he does. I’ve read some of his lyrics;
after you dissect them, it’s really saying something quite powerful. He spent a
lot of time in the bathroom (laughs). That’s what I remember. He used to
come into my room and spent a lot of time in the bathroom. The rest of us were
in there talking about whatever, and he’d be in the bathroom. He liked to do
that. I don’t know why.
IB: There are stories about him drawing all the time on that tour – even on
stage.
NMB: He used to do his drawing. And him and Frank…!
IB: Their relationship was a bit strained at that time?
NMB: Yes it was. As you can tell by the picture on the cover of the album!
IB: Tell me about your departure from the Mothers – you went off and worked
with George Duke?
NMB: Well, no – I went home and de-programmed myself from his music first. I
spent about 6 months doing that. To do his music, you can’t listen to anything
else.
IB: Terry Bozzio said the same thing – that it’s
pretty much 24 hours a day.
NMB: It’s all encompassing. You can’t hear anything else. Everything else
sounds wrong or so different that it just disturbs you. And it doesn’t allow
you to perform other music because it is 24/7 – as Terry says. So I went home
and de-programmed myself. I knew I had to do that, because every time I tried
to listen to music I just heard his. It’s so overwhelming. I did that, and I
started writing my own music. That was the way I pushed his out and allowed
mine to come through.
IB: How would you describe your music?
NMB: My music is happy music. I write about things that you’re familiar
with, that you would recognise. I write songs about happy situations – very
positive. So I allowed that to come through and immediately after I did that, I
went out and got a bunch of musicians together and recorded it. As a matter of
fact, six of those songs are gonna be six of the
songs I’m gonna release. As we speak, they’re being
transferred from 8-track to Pro-tool. And I’m gonna
go into the studio and brush them up a little bit – add a few things here and
there – but basically they’re almost ready to be released now. It’s raw, but
it’s real. It’s really real.
IB: So that wasn’t the songs George Duke produced?
NMB: No, that’s another set of songs. After that first band I put together,
I reformed Gregarious Movement and we started playing again and that’s when
George called me and asked me to join his band. The reason I left Frank was
because I told him I’d stay with him for about four or five years – no less
than four, no more than five – and it ended up about four years and it was time
to go. He was having some internal conflict with Herb Cohen – they were getting
ready to separate – and it was affecting the band too. So I thought it was a
good time to leave.
IB: So you went away and worked with your own band.
NMB: Yeah, I started playing with Gregarious Movement again – after I’d
recorded my originals and put them away in the vault. Because it wasn’t time to
release them then. The record companies would never have given me a contract
for that music because it wasn’t mainstream. You’ll hear it; I plan to release it
this summer. I’m gonna sell them at concerts and on
the Internet.
IB: If it’s your music, you’re free to do that.
NMB: That’s the beauty about that. I’m going to copyright it – to protect it
– with the Library of Congress. I’m gonna put it out
and if you like one song, then I’ll be happy. Anyway, George asked me to join
his band, and I accepted. He had Leon Ndugu Chancler on drums, Sheila E on percussion; Josie James was
female lead vocalist, Byron Miller on bass, and Charles “Icarus”
Johnson on guitar. I thought ‘Here’s another nice opportunity for me.’ I knew
I’d already made history with Frank, because by the time I went to that
audition, I’d checked him out and I learned he was a genius. And I said “Thank
you.” Here’s an opportunity for me to get into the music business with someone
who’s really respected in the industry – away from the top 40, away from the
mainstream. Here’s something that has cult status. Most music you like today
and it’s gone tomorrow. But this kind of stuff will go on forever. Then I heard
about his European connection and how much the people in Europe loved him, and
I thought ‘I’ve never been to Europe before. This is my destiny.’ And George
asked me to do in his band what I did in Frank’s – which was to be the front
man, do a lot of dancing around, and doing lead vocals. Which I didn’t
understand because I thought George had one of the most beautiful voices I’d
ever heard in my life – why did he want me to sing lead vocals?
IB: Well, some of the songs you do together – ‘Village Of The Sun’…
NMB: This is
true. So you know. He was thinking of the order of what you’re saying:
creating with his own music the kind of vocal camaraderie that we had developed
within Frank’s band. So I went ‘Okay, I understand that.’ And the first thing
we did was an album. And I thought ‘Okay, that’s a good way to get started.’
And he had me singing most of the songs – which weren’t his style. They were
his creation, but they weren’t for his voice. He has a very pure, natural
falsetto. Not many people have that, but George Duke does. I’d give my eyeteeth to have that. And if I had his voice too…! So I
joined his band, did a few albums, did a few tours. It was destiny, too. And
that stuff is now coming full circle – now the opportunity is now coming for me
to utilise that. What better way to go out to a ready made audience – people
who love George Duke, and people who love Frank Zappa – sing the songs that
they love and stick mine in the middle. If they like me, then they’ll like my
music too, I hope.
IB: How did you get back with Frank?
NMB: Frank called me in 83 and he says “Listen, I’m doing this Broadway play
called Thing-Fish, and I’ve got a part here that’s perfect for you. Would
you like to come down and audition for it?” I said “Sure, why not?” So I went
down and said, “What’s the part?” He says, “It’s called the Evil Prince.” And
he told me all about it. And I said, “Oh, wait a minute – that’s the character
that we created when we used to do ‘The Torture Never Stops’.” He said, “That’s
right. You’re perfect for the part.” I said “Okay, well where’s the music?” And
he said, “Well, I haven’t written it yet. I was waiting for you to come here.”
And he described the Evil Prince as this part time theatrical critic and mad
scientist who was hired by the Government to create this vaccine, this stuff
called Galoot Cologna. And what it really is is AIDS.
IB: And this was really before it was full blown.
NMB: Yeah. And his theory was that the Government hired these scientists to
create it to get rid of gay people. And the way they wanted to find out if this
serum – or whatever it was – worked, was to try it on prisoners in state
penitentiaries. And if they died, that means they were gay, and if they lived
they weren’t gay but they turned into what they call a Mammy Nun: they’ve got a
head like a potato, a mouth like a duck, feet like a duck, and they dressed in
nun outfits. And they talked like Ike Willis. That was the side effect of the
drug – it didn’t kill you, but it turned you into a Mammy Nun. Anyway, this
scientist the Government hired, he was called the Evil Prince but he was a mad
scientist, a part time theatrical critic and a fake opera singer. And he said,
“This is the character.” Now Frank knew that I used to work in light opera and
you know: light opera, fake opera singer - that kind of goes together. And he
knows there had been times where I had used my little opera voice (demonstrates).
So he knew I could do this before he called me, but he made it like “You want
to try out for this?” But knowing all the time that he wrote it with me in
mind. So after going through all the stuff together that we would do together
in his studio – as far as singing, and things like that – he’d send everybody
else home and say “Okay, come on, into my studio to the piano, and we’re gonna do the song ‘That Evil Prince’. He says “Bring your
tape recorder” which I always did. And I put it on. And he says “Here are the
lyrics, now I’m gonna play the notes. I’m creating it
right now and I need you to tape it so you can learn it, and when you come back
I’ll have the tracks ready and you can sing on it.” So he played one line at a
time, then I’d record it. And that’s how we did the whole song. And it’s a very
long song. Have you heard the album Thing-Fish?
IB: Of course!
NMB: Then you know ‘That Evil Prince’. But did you hear the one called ‘Amnerika’?
IB: Yes?
NMB: And that one too, the same way.
IB: I’ve never heard you sing that. I’ve seen the lyrics and I’ve heard
someone else sing them, but Frank only ever released Synclavier
and orchestral versions.
NMB: I don’t know why he didn’t put it on there because it’s brilliant.
You’ve got to hear me sing it, and then you’ll appreciate it more.
IB: So will you be doing that live when you tour?
NMB: If I can get a band to learn it (laughs), the music’s quite
difficult. (To his friend, Cathy) I played it for you yesterday, remember?
This is one thing about me with Frank: I used to tape everything. And so
actually I’m going to do it on tour with Bogus Pomp and Project Object; I’m
going to have them learn it. Because no one knows about it; you’ve heard the
music, but there’s no vocal performance. And you haven’t really heard it until
you’ve heard me sing it. Because we created it together. I mean, I still have
the tape and it’s funny…it’s so funny. I mean him and I are cracking up. I’m
laughing, and he’s laughing because he’s putting this melody to those words.
“You’re crazy!” and he’s going “Yeah. Isn’t it cool!”
IB: And it is a beautiful melody.
NMB: Oh, it’s an incredible melody. I started touring with Project Object
and playing with Bogus Pomp and I had them both learn ‘That Evil Prince’ and
the people just go crazy – they can’t imagine it. Because they never thought
they’d ever hear it. And so that song in particular from the album Thing-Fish…as
a matter of fact, no one’s doing anything from the album Thing-Fish
live. And there is a live version that I did from that small tour I did with
the 84 band. I did the small tour of America and I sang it then. And after he
had Ray White sing it. He did all right, you know (laughs).
IB: I was going to ask you about the 84 tour. As you say, it was a short
tour for you.
NMB: Yeah, I could only do the short American leg. I couldn’t do Europe and
the rest of the tour. When we got back together for the Thing-Fish album
and some things for Them Or Us, Frank said “Why don’t you come and do
the tour with us?” And I said, “Well I can’t do the whole thing, but I’ll do
what I can.”
IB: I don’t think he released any recordings from that early part of the
tour. He’s released lots from the subsequent part, and I have to say it’s some
of my least favourite stuff. So I’d loved to have heard you with them.
NMB: He was trying so hard to keep them happy. I was playing flute, alto
sax, tenor sax, and baritone sax. So I wasn’t doing a lot of singing.
IB: And after the 84 tour, you lived in England for a while?
NMB: Yeah, I came over here with my wife and stayed with her for a while.
And then I wrote a lot of other songs.
IB: I heard a story that you were training poodles!
NMB: No! English Staffordshire pit bull terriers. And they all carried two
tennis balls in their mouths – which will be the cover of my CD.
IB: So there’s that old conceptual continuity thing – dogs figure hugely in
Zappa’s work.
NMB: Yeah. I had raised dogs before I met Frank. German shepherds. I love
dogs. I love intelligent animals. And I know that animals are more intelligent
than most people think they are. I would raise these animals, and I would train
them, and I would give them to my relatives and friends – to protect them, and
to protect their children. I would raise English Staffordshire pit bull
terriers. And at that time, pit bulls in the United States were getting a bad
rap. And so I would raise them with children and cats. And their signature was
they would all carry two tennis balls in their mouths. I have video footage of
these dogs playing with kids, and sleeping with cats. And one day I plan to use
that in my videos that I will make. I will use this footage to show people…I
was on a mission, I was gonna do a project, I was gonna do a documentary to show people that these dogs – the
ones that are bad – it’s not the dogs, it’s the people that raised them. And
that’s what I was doing then. And at the same time I was writing a bunch of
originals – more music. That’s what I was doing; I never worked with poodles. I
think poodles are stupid (laughs). No, they’re not as intelligent as
English Staffordshire pit bull terriers.
IB: Okay. So how did you come to link up with Bogus Pomp?
NMB: All this time I was writing music, and I was waiting for the right time.
Because I believe timing is the most important element of anything that has yet
to evolve. You must prepare yourself and be ready. But you must wait until the
time is right. Bogus Pomp had this guy looking for me. This girl that I was
going with at the time, her sister wanted to find out who I was. She was trying
to protect her sister, and she wanted to find out who her new boyfriend was. So
she went on the Internet. She called her sister and asked, “Do you know who
you’re going out with?” She said, “Sure. I’m going out with Napoleon.” “No, do
you know who he is?” “Yeah. He
plays in a night club at the weekends…” She says, “Well, no. Not just that.
Listen, I’m gonna send you some stuff off the
Internet.” Anyway, the guy who was looking for me also searched the Internet
all the time and he saw that my girlfriend’s sister was trying to find out
about me and he called her and got my address. And he sent me this long letter.
It was so sincere, that I called him. He sent me a CD and a video, and said
they’d love me to play with them. So I checked them out. At first I said “No”.
I have to rehearse with someone before I can decide whether I want to play with
them or not. Anyway, I figured that with a little coaching from myself –
because they have to play the music right – I figured this would be a good
opportunity for me to get out there and play this music again. They don’t play
long tours, and I thought it would be quite good.
IB: And then you played with Project Object and, more recently, the
ANT-BEE.
NMB: Yes, I have a beneficial relationship with Billy James. We both believe
in the same things. We believe in destiny. We believe in fate. And we believe
that fate brought us together for something that’s very important for both of
our futures. We’re very excited about it, and he’s really helping me a lot.
Without him, I wouldn’t be here with you.
IB: That’s true. So next it’s the Grandmothers West. I assume that came
about through working with Project Object?
NMB: Well Billy put me in touch with Don Preston again.
IB: Of course, you two played together in the Roxy
band.
NMB: That’s right. Anyway, we’ll be playing some dates in Germany in the
summer. And I think all of these things – and the Live In Australia
album, the Roxy DVD – are making it the right
time for me to get back into music full time. I’ve looked after myself, and my
voice is now more disciplined, more mature…just better. And I know what works
and what doesn’t. I have another CD planned with more originals that I recorded
with Ed Mann and Peter Wolf. Some of that is pretty wild and probably closer to
Frank’s music than anything else I’ve done.
IB: Well, I’ll look forward to hearing that, and seeing you at Zappanale.
Can I have your final thoughts on Frank.
NMB: The last time I spoke to Frank was when I finished the 84 tour. But we
were still friends. I’ll never forget creating songs like ‘Kreegah
Bandolo’ with him – me on alto sax, him on guitar.
And overdubbing George’s vocal on ‘Village Of The Sun’ for the Roxy album. A lot of people don’t realise that
that’s all me, because you can harmonise best with your own voice. On ‘Inca
Roads’ on One Size Fits All, George sang that solo, but on the Dub
Room Special video we sang it as a duet. I also remember taking various
women through some of the songs for the Hunchentoot
project. Did he ever release that?
IB: Well, some of it turned up on the Sleep Dirt and Them Or Us
albums, but that’s about it. Thana Harris finally did
the female vocals, and she’ll be performing some of those songs at Zappanale
with Mike Keneally and Don Preston.
NMB: Well, he had me sing the songs for these women, then we would do them
together, then they would sing them on their own – and it was like “Next!” He
was such a hard taskmaster.
***
After conducting this interview, Nigey Lennon told me:
“I remember Napi as a very nice guy. When I auditioned for Drakma, Queen of
the Universe, I didn't have a lead sheet to work from so I had to basically do
it by ear: a nightmare. Napoleon knew the melody already and stood there and
helped me – note by note – when I'd get stuck. He was sweet.” Still is,
says I. A
fredited version of the complete interview will no doubt appear in a future
edition of T’Mershi Duween. Photo of Napi
with The Idiot taken surreptitiously by
Thomas Dippel backstage at Zappanale #16.