WHAT’CHOO TALKIN’ ‘BOUT...?

On Sunday 16 August 2009, backstage at Zappanale #20, while Terry Bozzio played his solo drum set finale, I was fortunate enough to get to interview Ike Willis for my Zappa The Hard Way book. I also managed to sneak in a few other off-the-cuff questions. Here’s the full transcript.

IB: When did you know you were in on the 88 tour – Mike Keneally’s diaries imply that, while you were around for rehearsals in 87, it wasn’t clear that you were to be part of the touring band?

IW: No, not to me.

IB: You knew you were in the band?

IW: Yeah, Frank always called me and said “Okay, rehearsals start on such and such a date”. No, no, I knew when rehearsals were starting. Mike didn’t know.

IB: He said you were there, but...

IW: I’m always there, but I never hang around. When Frank says be there, I’m there. He didn’t allow hanging around, it was time to go to work and I was there. You’ve got to remember that by the time Keneally came in, there were two different bands: there was me, Flo & Eddie, Ed and Tommy. And Chad and Frank. And Ray. Then, a couple of days later, there was no Tommy, no Flo & Eddie. And then there was Keneally. And Scott and Chad. And Ray and me and Frank. Within a week, there was two different bands. Rehearsals started on October 2^nd 1987.

IB: Good memory!

IW: It was my job to remember . That was my job in Frank’s band – to remember everything. That was my job.

IB: There are various theories as to why Flo & Eddie left.

IW: Well, that movie came out called Making Mr. Right with John Malkovich, and Happy Together became a mega hit again. So Flo & Eddie had to go take care of those commitments, etcetera, etcetera. I don’t know what else, but I know that was a big, big factor.

IB: What happened to Ray White?

IW: Ray disappeared.

IB: Do you know the story behind that?

IW: No, not really. I don’t know what happened because I didn’t see him again for ten years - until he popped up at my door, and there he was.

IB: I heard that his house was burgled.

IW: That part I know about, because Ray and I, we’re each other’s son’s Godfathers. So somebody broke into his house, where they were living in San Francisco. They’d been living there for like 20-some odd years, and then in 1987 things started getting really, really bad. And so he was having some troubles there, and he came to stay with me. But then one day he left my house and I didn’t see him again for ten years.

IB: It’s funny, because I always thought of you and Ray as, like, brothers. And Scott and Chad too.

IW: Well, Ray and I, we’re the Othello Brothers. That’s us!

IB: When did you first notice something happening between Scott and Chad?

IW: About halfway through the ‘Broadway The Hard Way’ rehearsals.

IB: The rehearsals?

IW: Yeah, oh yeah. Things were just getting...

IB: Well, I know that Scott is a strange character

IW: To say the very least. Very understated, Andy, I like that.

IB: Funny as hell, but I’m not sure people always understand his humour.

IW: Scott is wildly, wildly talented – I mean, one of the most amazing musicians I’ve ever seen. But there’s this...it’s just Scott.

IB: But they’d been playing together for six years, hanging out...

IW: Sure, sure.

IB: ...and then suddenly it just stopped. Scott can’t pinpoint any particular incident.

IW: No, there was no specific incident: it just built up over time. It was Scott’s way of dealing with people.

IB: He was still quite young at the time

IW: They were both very young. And Scott didn’t get along with the horn section...the Fowlers, and stuff like that. According to Scott “I hate horns, blah, blah, blah” And he was the Clonemeister at the time, so that was another thing.

IB: Because Ed used to be the Clonemeister...

IW: Ed was my Clonemeister when I came in in 1978, then Artie was the Clonemeister after that, and then on my last tour, Scott was the Clonemeister. But after things started getting real tense between Scott and Chad, Frank tried to split it up between me and Scott: he said “Okay, you let Scott handle the notes, and you conduct the band”. So for the last month of rehearsals, I was conducting the band and Scott was handling the dots on the page.

IB: So you were kind of a mediator?

IW: My job was to sit on Scott and make sure nobody killed him.

IB: [laughs]

IW: But it’s true! Frank said “Just make sure they don’t kill him.”

IB: I really didn’t get that impression from what I’ve read and heard: he seemed almost unaware of what was going on.

IW: No, no, no. Frank knew what was going on. At all times. Actually, there was one incident where Scott just pissed off Bruce Fowler and everybody in the horn section. And I said “Okay, everybody stop. Go to lunch.” And the phone rang. And it was Frank, calling from the house saying “What’s going on down there?” He wasn’t even there. He knew what was going on. I have no idea how, because this had just happened, like, less than a minute after I’d said “Lunch! Everybody take a break; Scott, go over there.” The phone rang and it was our sound mixer, Harry Andronis, saying “Ike, it’s Frank - he wants to talk to you.” And Frank said “What’s going on. Talk to me. What the hell is happening down there?” Less than a minute. He was never aloof. He knew exactly what was going on. He was kept abreast of everything. I don’t know how he did it [laughs]...but he did it. Trust me.

IB: Mike Keneally – in his tour diaries – and Scott – in Wictor’s book - talk about you running up and down the bus, talking to everyone – you and Albert Wing, very upbeat, very chatty. Is that the sort of character you recognise? Is that you?

IW: Well, I talk to everybody. The thing is Albert and I, we’d been together... at that point, I’d been with the Fowler Brothers’ band almost as long as I’d been in the Zappa band. So Albert and I were good friends. That’s just us.

IB: The crucial thing here is that there were two buses: the smoking bus and the non-smoking bus.

IW: Yeah, there was the guys-who-loved-to-hang-out-with-Frank bus, and there was the older guys: which was us. The salty old veterans’ bus. At that point, that was like my tenth year in the band.

IB: Talking about Albert – do you remember his ‘pretend’ marriage?

IW: No?

IB: He got married at some point, in a hotel. With Bruce Fowler presiding

IW: No! When was this?

IB: In 88. This lady, Randee Pollock, was following the band around...

IW: Oh yeah, Randee! Yeah, yeah, yeah. I remember her, she followed us. My God, that’s right. But I don’t remember the fake wedding. Her, I remember.

IB: I’m not sure how many people witnessed it.

IW: Maybe it was in Amsterdam. I seem to remember some sort of...

IB: No, it was just before the US leg ended, because Frank mentioned on stage that Albert wasn’t available any more, he’s married now

IW: I do remember her.

IB: She was just like a hanger-on?

IW: Oh yeah, definitely - definitely hanging on there. Wow.

IB: So, anyway - there were intimations of some problems during rehearsals. But talking to Scott, he seems to think it was all manageable.

IW: Well of course he did! Ha, ha, ha!

IB: Until...in Springfield, there was this showdown – an unusual band meeting.

IW: That was in Portland, Maine. I remember quite well. Chad said something to somebody in the crew, and Scott made one of his offside comments to Chad, and Chad said “That’s it. I’ve had it.” And of course, within minutes, Frank knew about it and called us to his dressing room for a meeting and said “Hey, I’m not gonna put up with this. I don't like rocking the boat. This is a very expensive tour, a very long tour...”

IB: We know about the East Coast tour, and then Europe...where there actually dates booked for the West Coast?

IW: Yeah, yeah, yeah. At the end of the Europe tour, we were gonna come home, break for a couple of weeks, and then start rehearsals for the Fall leg, and we were booked until New Year’s of the next year. And then it all got called off

IB: I know Frank talked about possible dates in Israel and elsewhere.

IW: Yeah, yeah. We had a whole schedule. Frank always told me “Okay, this is what the schedule is: we’re gonna be in blah-blah...” I’m not gonna say he always called me first, but I was always one of the first he called.

IB: Scott says he was usually one of the last to know, because he lived a long way away.

IW: Yeah, he’s from San Francisco. But Frank would always call me and say “Okay, rehearsals start on this day...”, alright?

IB: Okay. Once the problem had been aired, then suddenly things started happening. Like Scott’s laminate - his backstage pass - got defaced. Do you know who did that?

IW: Oh, the guys in the crew. That’s what I’m saying: he pissed off all of the guys in the crew; he pissed off the horn section. He doesn’t play well with others, let’s put it that way. Or, he didn’t play well with others. So the guys in the crew would find ways to upset him.

IB: So it wasn’t anyone from the band, not the horn players?

IW: No, no, no.

JC: Was it, like, the road crew...?

IW: Yeah. And it wasn’t anything specific. He rubbed everybody up the wrong way. I was the only one that really got along with, and I wouldn’t take sides, I’d just say “Don’t do this, man. Don’t do it”

IB: Scott says that after the showdown, only you, Robert Martin, Albert Wing, and obviously Mike Keneally, came up to him and said “We didn’t know anything about this. We don’t agree with what was said.”

IW: Well, the thing is...I agreed, and I told Scott “You’ve got to stop doing this, man. You’ve gotta stop; you’re pissing too many people off. Stop.” And like I said, Frank told me to sit on him and make sure they don’t kill him. Those were his words. “Please, try your best.” And on that day in Portland, he got away from me for about five minutes. Said something to one of the guys in the crew, set them off. Set Chad off. And that’s when we had the big meeting. Portland, Maine.

IB: It seemed like throughout that tour, you and Frank always got along and had fun on stage. I remember seeing the Barcelona video, with you and Frank arm in arm singing Find Her Finer.

IW: Oh God, oh God. Yeah. We had so much fun.

IB: Any particularly fond memories from that whole tour?

IW: Oh, just too many. We just had so much fun. On any given day, it would be whatever was the in-joke of the day...whatever happened to...at any point in time...it would become part of the show. I’d be at my mike, singing, playing, trying to do my job, and Frank would sliiiiide over to me, and suddenly he’s right there and in the middle of a verse, he’d say something, and I’m on the floor. Then, of course, now I’ve got to get him back. And we could go on like that all night long – all night long this is going on. And as the 88 tour progressed, it would get more and more like that. That was the hardest tour. That was the hardest I ever worked on any tour. We worked and worked and worked. See, that’s the thing: in 78, at that point, Frank gave me a lot of room, a lot of leeway.

IB: He seemed to give Scott a lot of room, as well.

IW: Yes, he did. It’s like I say: Scott is a wildly, wildly incredible musician. But, of course, consider the rest of the band: we’ve got the Fowler brothers. We’ve got Albert, we’ve got Paul Carman and Kurt McGettrick. And Bobby and Ed and Chad. And Mike. Everybody’s just a phenomenal musician. So it was quite a great time.

IB: One final question: who is Greg Bolognese?

IW: What’s that?

IB: Greg Bolognese – do you know who he is?

IW: Greg Bolognese? Of course! He’s one of my oldest friends - from Long Island, New York. I’ve known Bolognese since he was a teenager.

IB: Because he came onstage a couple of times in 88 – he sung on Crew Slut, and did a voter registration thing.

IW: I’ve known Greggie since he was...

IB: Frank described him as a friend of his, too.

IW: Oh yeah. He used to come to the shows before I joined the band. He was in his teens – he was like 13, 14, 15 years old. I met him when he was 15 or 16. And he always used to come to the shows. The New York gang. They always bought the same seats. Front row. Same guys, every tour since 1978, since I was in the band. Every time we go to New York, same seats, same guys. Bolognese was right in the middle. I’ve known those guys forever. And they’re still there: Stevie, Eugene, Bolognese, the LaMastro brothers, Jack Conklin...all those guys, when I’m there with Project Object - whenever I’m in New York with anybody - those guys are there, man. Some of them have moved out to Florida: Stevie lives in Florida; Eugene moved to Florida. Colin LaMastro moved Upstate, but I see him when I’m in Upstate New York. Greggie still lives on Long Island. Conklin still lives in Manhattan. Joey Psychotic, he died of a liver ailment about five years ago. The boys, you know? They’re very, very loyal.

IB: If we have a little more time, are you happy to talk about other things? Your solo material...?

IW: The Ike Willis Project is actually about to be up and running. In about three weeks, I’ve got to go back up North, to the North West, with Pojama People – Glenn Leonard, our old drummer.

IB: And his wife, Alli.

IW: And Alli, yeah. So we’re gonna hit the North West and Northern California. And in between that, I may be doing some preliminary gigs in the Bay Area – Santa Cruz, Eureka, stuff like that - with The Ike Willis Project. I reformed the Ike Willis Band when I was living in the Bay Area.

IB: Are these the guys that played on your solo albums?

IW: No, not at all. But they are gonna be playing the stuff from my solo albums. And then I’m gonna start working - finally, if I have the time, I’ll start on my new album.

IB: So you have the songs written?

IW: Oh, I’m three albums behind! I’ve got at least three albums worth of material.

IB: It’s really frustrating: as much as we love you playing the Zappa stuff, we’d like to hear some of your solo material performed live.

IW: Yeah, yeah, yeah. Imagine how I feel! I’ve got three albums worth of material that I haven’t even been able to record because of touring, and stuff like that. And getting re-settled in LA.

IB: So you moved out of Portland?

IW: I lived in Portland. Then the Bay Area for two years. And for the last three years, Denise and I have been in LA. Now we’re actually moving into our permanent place, and I’m gonna start working on the new album as soon as I get home.

IB: I’d like to ask you about Jeff Hollie.

IW: Jeff Hollie!

IB: A couple of years ago, we met him in Holland.

IW: You met him?

IB: Yeah, he played with Cuccurullo Brillo Brullo, and they introduced him as this guy who played tenor sax with Frank.

IW: He’s the ‘Jeff’ on Joe’s Garage.

IB: He plays on your album, as well.

IW: He’s my best friend from college. Me and my wife and him, we met on my first day in college in 1974. He’s my daughter’s Godfather. He and I, we started our first band together in our freshman year in college. We met the very first day of college. If it wasn’t for Jeff Hollie, I would have never been prepared for Frank Zappa. Jeff was the biggest Zappa fan in our circle. Jeff had all the albums, up to that point. He brought me up...I was at private school, from 71 to 74. After graduation, I was in college. Jeff, I met him on the basketball court. We go to our first orientation meeting; my wife to be is sitting across the room. So I met her, and then we’re hanging out in the dormitories, and Jeff said “Hey, man - are you into Zappa?” I said “Yeah”. We were into like, Yes, Zappa, Mahavishnu Orchestra, Return To Forever.

IB: [pointing at shirt] The Beatles!

IW: Yeah, yeah, yeah. The Beatles, I love them. And Jeff had all the Zappa albums. My roommate was a Yes freak. And I was listening to the Mahavishnu Orchestra, Genesis, Return To Forever, the Beatles. You name it. So we’d all just sit up there smoking doobies, and listen to our favourite stuff. And Jeff brought me up to speed on all the latest Zappa stuff. So by the time Frank came to our school - Washington University - and did a concert a few years later, I was on the local crew, and we made eye contact. And after a while, Frank takes me to his dressing room, hands me his guitar and says “Do you know any of my shit?” And I said “Yeah,”, and he said “Well, play me something.” And I could because of Jeff Hollie. So how do you repay your best friend...I mean, if it wasn’t for him, there would be no Ike WiIlis, okay? Because he’d always wanted to play with Frank, the only thing I could think of...all through the Joe’s Garage sessions, Jeff was there anyway. I don’t know if you’ve seen pictures, but there’s me and Frank and Jeff in the studio. So I said “Frank, please, please. He knows all your stuff. At least give me this. You’ve got to give me this. At least put Jeff on one song.” And it was on the title track: “Even if you play it on the saxophone”; that’s Jeff. I mean, how do you repay your best friend for doing something like that? It was the only thing I could come up with to really, really repay him for what he’d done.

IB: Have you spoken to him lately?

IW: Last week in Eindhoven! He lives in Amsterdam. That’s the great thing. We always stay in touch. He’s been in Amsterdam for 14 years - he escaped from Washington. I told him we were coming to Eindhoven, because I hadn’t seen him for a couple of years.

IB: That’s great. Now what about the project with Stu Grimshaw – what happened? You performed it here a few years ago.

IW: Oh, Der Fremde. Or The Stranger.

IB: Yes, is it ever going to be released on CD?

IW: It has been released?

IB: Has it? Why was I not informed!

IW: Yeah, yeah. I think he released it officially - either last year, or the year before last.

IB: Really?

IW: Oh, Stu is amazing...outstanding.

IB: Why is it not on sale here?

IW: I don’t know.

IB: I’m gonna have to follow this up when I get home.

IW: Yeah. In fact, I plan to touch base with Stu as soon as I get home, because I haven’t talked to him for about a year or so. He just sent Hank [Ike’s manager] an official release of The Stranger. Drop Hank an email and ask him the last whereabouts of Stu. That way we’ll all know, okay? Hank and I were just talking about Stu about two weeks ago.

IB: It was really nice to hear that here the other year – in amongst all this great Zappa music, with the kids playing, and you...

IW: Stu is phenomenal, man. What a composer. That was some hard work, there. With the string section, the instrumentation, the singing in German and English. I haven’t had to do that since Frank!

***

By this time, the backstage area was getting mighty crowded and Ike had already given me more time than originally planned. He was in great form and it was a real pleasure to sit and chat with him – as I had done at previous Zappanales, and hope to do again in the futchum. Photo of Ike with this sleeping Idiot taken by John E. Campbell Esq.

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